I'll stop now. Pat, in Guinn's book, presents herself as not wanting the murders to happen, going so far as to say that the following night at Waverley, before anthing happened with Rosemary, she prayed to God, asking him to make the murders stop and since she went ahead and exercised her own free will in participating in carnage and mutilation and God didn't strike her down and stop her, Leslie or Tex, she's not believed in God since that night.And she has a problem with Linda presenting herself as not being a willing participant.As a side issue, if Linda hadn't been at the car when they arrived at it after Cielo's action, would they have just driven off and left her ? Period. On a different note: RH- nice post. Catch 22s abound.If Linda did in fact have a valid driver's license there is no reason why it would be rejected when she went to see Bobby Beausoleil. It must be time for a break. I'm not saying the 'Linda kites in Charlie speak' didn't happen, just that I don't believe that had anything to do with Susan recanting. He also wasn't interested as long as they had Susan even though it was reluctantly.That all said, have a look at this interesting piece from Col Scott's site 7 years ago and tell me what you think. It means nothing moreExcept that his 'opinion' was that of the prosecutor that went towards the securing of the conviction. When Charlie meets with Susan, even though she's plumbed him firmly in it with confessions, articles, interviews,a book and a grand jury starring role, she recants and ends up granting herself a one way ticket to oblivion.Coincidence ?Tex and Linda, on the other hand, don't see or have contact with Charlie and stick with their stories {even though we know Tex's is bullshit, some of Linda's is corroborated by Joe Sage}.Coincidence ?Fits her personality (disorder? Eventually, Linda moved to Boston where she married a man named Robert Kasabian. Prosecution ? At the very least, he was an accessory before the fact in that particular crime. About the license, it had to be expired. As for the night of LaBianca, it's so shrouded in mystery and there are so many questions that I am not exactly sure what his role was. ORWHUT: Very perceptive. Before goofball goes off on Hollywood did I hear her initially say 'she shouldn't have been there'?I'm inclined to not attach much credence to what Sandy says regarding the murders because she told Robert that she was probably the last to find out about them and didn't do so for a month, even though she claims she felt her group had done them and reportedly told Mary Brunner this. You are trained, instead, to focus on "indicia of credibility and reliability". Atkins herself made that point in "The Myth" Furthermore, Charlie was never charged with attempted murder for any of the other incidents on LaBianca night. Attack me again or some shit? not long after the events in question. I don't like that Martin Luther King was supposedly caught on tape cheating on his wife but even if true, it wouldn't invalidate some of the good things he did. More weight does not necessarily make it right or definitive.That said, quoting various bods is more for the interest of seeing exactly what they did say about certain of the incidents/matters we're all discussing and sometimes providing illumination.If Watson is attacking Voytek..And Krenwinkel is chasing AbigailAnd then Sadie came running out of the house, Who was watching Sharon Tate?No one. She's the better alternative to a man who says "mean things".I will say Donald Trump and Manson are very similar. It's not like he was shooting in the dark. I gotta say I lean to the Saint here. At the front door, she ran into a stabbed and beaten Wojciech Frykowski. How do we know she didn't take part in some act of violence?Lo' and be hold, Bugliosi had a perfect scenario to answer this very important question and yet, when one looks at where that apartment was, it seems like another kill two birds with one stone job. If it comes out that a witness has two convictions, one for bestiality involving a local horse and the other for sexually abusing one of their siblings, the other side will lean hard on that. Q (by Bugliosi). Saint- I commend you for your deletions. Manson Mythos saidThere is an interesting quote from Fleischmann in an issue of the Free Press prior to Kasabian becoming the star witness. She droved straight to New Mexico, where her husband was living with another woman. From there, Linda and Tanya flew back to New Mexico, only to hitchhike all the way to her father's home in Florida, and finally back to her mother in New Hampshire. ' kill the white man'. You believe she was largely an accurate witness. But1. Linda Kasabian ran away from her small New Hampshire town when she was 16, married a man she barely knew, divorced, married again, and gave birth to a daughter, all before she was 20 years old . She down plays her Boston arrest by saying she was present where narcotics were present (technically correct) but wouldn't it have been fun to have a few more details for the jury: a fed/state narcotics raid involving 20k worth of LSD? Manson Mythos saidThe recent revelation of the close proximity of the apartment where Saladin Nader allegedly lived and the HQ of the Straight Satans is something that cannot be dismissed as pure CoincidenceOf course it can !In a city where different Family members had various dealings, if some of those places were near each other, what is unusual about that ? Even though she was present at both the Tate and LaBianca murders, because she was the key witness in District Attorney Vincent Bugliosi's prosecution of Charles Manson and his followers for the 1969 killings, Kasabian received immunity. I hope I do thatI think you do.This is a good piece. It is time for the oppressed minorities and especially the black man to throw off the continued vestiges of slavery and seize what is rightfully theirs- take back the fruits of their 200 years of slave labor. I think part of where our paths parallel instead of cross is training. Imagine what Van Houten's attorneys could have done with that 1976 Globe reporter and a trip to New Hampshire. When things didn't work out with Bob, Linda decided to go with Gypsy back to Spahn's Ranch. (click for details). Of course that's his job. Same with Shea. Horrified, Linda looked him in the eye and said "sorry," just before he collapsed. (Inaudible) me screaming. Linda explained what had happened, and said that she couldn't have brought Tanya because it would've looked too suspicious. So when I started my lawsuits, I went to a Salvation Army store and with the luck of the Vikings, some guy had just donated a bunch of HIS custom made Italian suits. I think we agree again. She turned State's Evidence and received immunity in exchange for her testimony, which was without a doubt, the most damaging to the family. He reinforced it was alright to act on the dangerous impulses this particular assortment of people had. And more than any other witness, Linda Kasabian's testimony helped convict Charles "Tex" Watson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel, Leslie Van Houten, and Charles Manson. Low level of intelligence: Blanket judging others as having a low level of intelligence because they don't agree with you on your low intellect, racist ideas.Manson Mythos, Obama is:Community organizerAttorneyConstitutional law professorState SenatorUS SenatorPOTUSNobel LaureateManson Mythos:Angry racist moron. On August 8, 1969, Kasabian and. Manson Blog Proves that Tenerelli Was Not a Gypsy Joker! She later became the prosecutions chief witness against Charles Manson and his followers after the 1969Tate-LaBianca murders. It's no wonder her Mum was in despair.Linda showed amazing strength and guts to testify in the trials that she did but I don't think it's unfair to suggest that when it came to actual life and real living, she was one of the worst adverts for the counterculture and to some extent, gives the establishment their own justification for trying to pick apart the movement of those heady times. He also went on to say that he preferred Linda as she hadn't killed anyone but because of the grand jury deal, was stuck with Susan.Interestingly, even with Susan, he simply had no case against Linda. When Patti Tate asks Good why her sister had to die. Linda was instructed to go back to the front gate and stand guard while the others went into the residence. I also don't think it let's Manson 'off the hook'.Then again if Van Houten really wanted to cut holes in her shirt for her elf wings maybe a bottomless pit with a secret magical realm, living there for 100 years and growing to 144,000 souls was part of it. Her testimony in the Watson trial {can be found at Cielodrive.com} is a real eye opener and fills in some details that hadn't been readily available. ]THE COURT: Overruled. Could Watson Have Conspired With Suzan LaBerge??? Kasabian saw it as an opportunity to flee the ranch (without Tanya). So if Kasabian stumbles on what he wants and says they arrived at the Polanski residence "4-5 hours after dark". MM said: This supports the copy cat motive. Not even in her Grand Jury testimony did Atkins say anything. Funny how his client shortly after turned out to be the best evidence against him. But so much was made of that in the aftermath of her 2009 revelation by those that thought they'd found Linda's smoking gun, that the facts were not examined and as a result, what is in fact a rather damp squib is felt by some to be the tip of the iceberg of Kasabianesque deception.During her time on the stand, lots of really interesting, but essentially unimportant stuff was brought out by the defence lawyers, Fitzgerald & Kanarek in particular. Lynn,I love a story with a good narrator and Bill's voice is excellent for what he does. Granted, Dean Moorehouse was the kind of Dad that I'd like to jail for a very long time, notwithstanding acid blitzing his being, but it would appear that Ruth had some things going on within her that weren't vastly different to Linda. Don't post that when I'm taking a drink of beer. Always was. "She obviously neglected to mention that she got into Steven Parent's car. ?I don't think money or looks has anything to do with it, nor do I personally care much who anyone else has sympathy for. But it also denotes the paradox that was the Family. She was granted full immunity from prosecution in exchange for 18 days of testimony. In case anyone is wondering, any reports of Manson's death are at this point to be considered exaggerated. Funny how his client shortly after turned out to be the best evidence against himWhat's so funny about that ? "Charlie entered into my headand Tanya was there and I was afraid for her life," Mrs. Kasabian said. Anything she says next is what I mean by 'unreliable'. Mr. Kasabian had abandoned her and their child in Los Angeles while he went off to South America. Do you remember last years motive poll ? Hell no, it wasn't even life in jail at the time, it was death in the gas chamber.Please offer some proof that this or something similar is the case. And even during that phase, they tried to paint her as the mastermind, but no one even attempted to say she killed anyone. Eventually, she. YOu can say she is certainly flawed, self-destructive, has terrible judgement and suchbut applying terms like good and bad just distorts any understanding of the whole shebang. He said he surmised it was the reason. The Vietnam WAR and those that "served" and those that didn't is NOW becoming a subject of contention. She said Manson supposedly announced it was "time" (seemingly out of the blue) for Helter Skelter. How would she have heard anything Linda said, especially when you take into account that Linda's statement was issued to Susan ?Secondly, how would Pat know how much of a willing participant Linda was ? How could you skip that? Life With The Manson Family Los Angeles Public Library The Manson compound on Spahn Ranch. "Oh yes, Mr Pritchard has been convicted in the past of robbing banks, but he lives at home and looks after his elderly and disabled Mother and his wayward sister's troubled child..". Linda did choose her path, but so did Ruth. Bugliosi said. 2. [And Bugliosi leads a reluctant Kasabian to the answer he wants. Debra Tate Disgraces the Words Victims' Advocate, Manson Blog Reveals True Identity and Fate of Ruby Pearl. That's because sometimes, my thoughts on part of something that someone has said aren't formulated at the moment that I'm answering but other things that have been said have sparked off my train of thought or brought up an answer or a question.Other times, I'll need to do a bit of research so an answer won't be forthcoming straight away.Other times, just in general thought, I might have a sudden insight on something someone has said because I've been thinking about it; but that might be days later.I hope that's what you mean. Go figure that one out.NOW, thank God, the whole issue of heroes, sacrifice and cowards is finally coming out of the closet. She ran with it all the way until the penalty phase. But what happened before and after that. She is currently sixty nine years old. What other ID would she have used? The other day you were hating on people who never killed one single communist or burned one village, because they used their draft deferrments to wait out the war. Secondlyhow did the jury know she was different? She eventually turned herself in and agreed to become the lead witness for the prosecution in exchange for her own immunity. Might be a good post though. People V. Manson, Atkins, Krenwinkel, & Van Houten, Manson Life-Style Changes After Move From Death Row, Manson Follower Recalls His Life of Crime at Sanity Hearing, No 'Family' Exists, Media Created It Manson Testifies, 'You Better Pray I Never Get Out,' Manson Friend Tells Sanity Trial, 4 Manson Followers Convicted in Hawthorne Robbery-Shootout. I see the physical evidence not lining up with her testimony, her line of sight doesn't seem to allow her to see everything she has mentioned (I'm working on that one), several of her statements 'just don't make no sense' and many were brought out by leading questions. That is exactly what Leslie Van Houton was charged and CONVICTED for.One intelligent Prosecutor, One competent Defense Attorney, One Judicially savy Judge and WHO really cares what a bunch of "moon rocks" THINK - it was a "robbery. So he does have redeeming qualities and a good side as well. Linda married Robert Peasley when she was only sixteen-years-old. I liked your book and you- but don't agree with your conclusions :). She has been portrayed a number of times in films. Why?In the grand scheme of things, with all that was going on, perhaps for those few seconds or minutes none of them envisaged Sharon attempting to escape as she was roped up. She. And Ruthann ended up turning out ok- even more of a reason phrases like "Dark to Light" apply- if you have to use them at all.I admit I am a little surprised people will defend Linda Kasabian so fiercely. In a sense, Helter Skelter and Susan Atkins developed as parallel lines during the investigation. Did Bugliosi actually use any scenario that did not come from someone else ? She married twice and had a baby girl, Tanya, with her second husband, Robert Kasabian. A Conversation with Johnny Ussery- The Then 7 year old son of Clyda Dulaney! Back in the day drunkenness and mentally altering ones mind with drugs was considered BAD, because only losers did that. Very Well Saidand again. Hearing screams, she ran towards the house and witnessed the killing of Wojciech Frykowski by Watson. Post this, she moved in with her father who was working as a bartender in Miami. Everything he did was part of a plan to wage a horrible war (murder). George Stimson reckons it was because she owed him, after Charlie had protected her from her husband and Charles Melton when they came to get their $5000 back. I'm not sure how the neglect of Ruth's teen years inures her from criticism but not Linda. Scared she wanted to drive away, but could not as her child was at the Spahn Ranch. So even if Kasabian was a Hippy, when pared down to essentials, Hippiedom was hardly presented as an advert for something wholesome. Manson Mythos saidif you believe what is written in the Guinn book, while she didn't say Kasabian engaged in any violent acts, she claims she didn't do any of what she said on the stand. I thought this one was DebS !Your posts are generally good thought provokers. Her new family, though, was already falling apart. Her Other Children Bob Kasabian But NOW, "drunkenness" is considered to be the by-product of a DISEASE. I am quite sure that the answer to number 4 is Helter Skelter Mr. H.I an not sure that was the real reason Charlie instigated the murders -but that is the reason Linda,Tex,Katie,Leslie and Susan went and committed them.They have all been saying so for many years.We can try to figure it out ourselves. I have for the past many years looked at these crimes from the prospective of how I might have handled the defense. If Kasabian was what you are implying here, Nader would be dead and with Clem and Sadie as accomplices, no one would be any the wiser. Leslie Van Houten, 19, pleaded innocent to the murder of Mr. and Mrs. Leno LaBianca. In fact, his case is better against her then Van Houten at that point. Because certainly the message couldn't be, "sorry you're in jail bud, but we kicked started a global race war last night".Lol.